Curse

SotiCoto · Oct 10, 2007, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Generally speaking, when I port or Dash out... I do it to somewhere that the enemies aren't going to be trying to hit me, so moving any further is generally unnecessary until I have my health back and skills recharged... other than to keep with the rest of the party if the battle gradually relocates itself (as it sometimes does).

Quote:

And I was saying you don't need those skills to do it. Simply moving is effective enough.

... Try telling that to the "thwack thwack thwack" of numbers I try to get if I disengage from combat and try to run away WITHOUT an increased movement speed or Bamf. If I can move at ordinary speed, so can they, and the difference is all they need to do is keep pressing the skill buttons (or even less if AI).

Avarre · Oct 10, 2007, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smoke

I didnt hear it anywhere, and pls dont take me for a sheep, if you are a 20/20 fanboi then thats fine, as you didnt give any reason why 20/20 is so worth it.

Which brings me to another point, how about ill ask you where you can deem 20/20 more effective then others like zealous, ebon, fiery and so on... i could prolly go on about uses/areas/builds for those mods but in the end it would prolly just fly over ur head... so how about we save ourselfs some time, you read my response carefully, and then you might just understand where im coming from.

Cheers

I already explained my reasoning for why sundering can be useful, and I did so in this thread. Also, you seem like a highly intelligent individual to be so clearly superior. Perhaps you could tell me more about the game, and I'll try to keep up!

Except I know more about this game than you ever will. I'll even explain again, since your post is more composed of self-infatuation than explanation.

As far as PvP is concerned, vampiric and sundering have two different approaches. Vampiric gives you slightly more pressure damage. However, most of this small added dps gets mopped up by overheals/LoD. It is still extremely effective in adding, over time, more damage than Sundering. The vampiric degen isn't that significant since it gets cleaned by your own party heals. The downside is that with the meta of partywide passive defense, the added pressure of vampiric weapons is not that significant.

Sundering on high damage weapons such as Scythe/Axe/Hammer has the advantage of being able to unleash a large critical. In a significant number of cases, a target of a spike may be saved with a fragment of health remaining. In these cases, the vampiric mod would not have killed them with the additional -3/-5s. Sundering, when it does trigger, can result in a larger burst of damage which makes it more likely for a person to be killed during a spike rather than live with a small amount of health. Since the point of PvP is to make people die, sundering is arguably effective on spikes as it gives a better chance of a kill when it does trigger than vamp might, even though vamp triggers constantly. Also to note is that the larger sundering hits have more reduced from the effect of prot spirit, are more likely to trigger spirit bond, and suffer from being mitigated.

Zealous and elemental have their own uses as well. Zealous being mainly for axe warriors that use bulls strike/frenzy significantly enough that their energy requires more than the basic regen. However with the number of block skills being used, it can be less effective in many cases. It is also arguable how necessary zealous is at all - and, like sunder/vamp, a question or preference to many melees and their playstyles. Elemental, obviously, is for conjure warriors or killing people that take more damage from elemental.

Still with me? Or did I 'fly over your head'?

makosi · Oct 10, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

I think it's worth reiterating that sundering only triggers on attack skills (one fifth of the time) whereas vampiric triggers on every successful hit. A lot of people forget that.

Sundering can aid a concentrated spike although vampiric will help with overall pressure. 'Can' and 'will' are important words here.

Avarre · Oct 10, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

I think it's worth reiterating that sundering only triggers on attack skills (one fifth of the time) whereas vampiric triggers on every successful hit. A lot of people forget that.

Sundering can aid a concentrated spike although vampiric will help with overall pressure. 'Can' and 'will' are important words here.

Vampiric 'can' help with overall pressure, if you aren't being blocked by partywide passive defense. It also 'will' put 2 dps of pressure on your team, which can often be more than your vampiric deals to your opponent.

Both weapons have advantages and disadvantages. Some of it comes down to player preference or however they choose to justify the superiority of one or the other. Most players are still in favor of Vampiric, I believe.

fenix · Oct 10, 2007, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

I think it's worth reiterating that sundering only triggers on attack skills (one fifth of the time) whereas vampiric triggers on every successful hit. A lot of people forget that.

Sundering can aid a concentrated spike although vampiric will help with overall pressure. 'Can' and 'will' are important words here.

Actually, you're wrong. Very wrong. Strength works only on attack skills, Sundering works all the time. It just has a 20% chance of hitting. Even so, Vampiric isn't going to kill a target. A sudden spike of +30 damage with Sundering will. Especially if you are already hitting for ~35 armor ignoring damage, and in some cases a deep wound.

Longasc · Oct 10, 2007, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

I think it's worth reiterating that sundering only triggers on attack skills (one fifth of the time) whereas vampiric triggers on every successful hit. A lot of people forget that.

Sundering triggers all the time, not depending on attack skills. Strength triggers only on attack skills.

Seems one person mixed that up!

makosi · Oct 10, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Vampiric 'can' help with overall pressure, if you aren't being blocked by partywide passive defense. It also 'will' put 2 dps of pressure on your team, which can often be more than your vampiric deals to your opponent.

Both weapons have advantages and disadvantages. Some of it comes down to player preference or however they choose to justify the superiority of one or the other. Most players are still in favor of Vampiric, I believe.

Agreed. If I were facing a tainted team who are spreading disease, I'd favour Sundering because it's created tough enough pressure without adding to it.

I think the moral of the story is that weapon swapping > perfect mods, however you interpret it.

fenix · Oct 10, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Agreed. If I were facing a tainted team who are spreading disease, I'd favour Sundering because it's created tough enough pressure without adding to it.

I think the moral of the story is that weapon swapping > perfect mods, however you interpret it.

If you are worrying about the -1 regen from Vamp, then you are playing with the wrong people. It is almost ignorable. Secondly, you should really just use Vampiric for hitting through blocks, if there is lots of it. If not, then you should be using Sundering/Furious/Elemental to hit on targets, and of course Sundering for dumping your adren on someones face.

Although, your avatar has a picture of Assassins, which makes me think you don't play much else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

And for the whole Sundering / Vampiric thing.... Sundering is better on heavier C+Space damage weapons (like Hammers); Vampiric is better on low-damage, high-rate weapons (like Daggers). Problem solved. Now could we please stop arguing about it?

Wrong. Everyone seems to be wrong about Sundering. Sundering is good because when it hits, it adds ~25-30 damage extra. BUT, when it hits with a Critical hit, the two add ~50-60 damage on top of your regular hit. That paired with the attack skill damage, can add up to be huge. This means that on a weapon with a high Critical hit (Axe [6-28], Hammer [19-35], Scythe [9-41]), you will be hitting a target for up to 100, and in some cases well OVER 100. THAT is what kills someone. Not an additional 3 or 5 from Vampiric.

makosi · Oct 10, 2007, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Although, your avatar has a picture of Assassins, which makes me think you don't play much else.

I play all classes. I chose that avatar because I like the way the assassins were positioned 'head-to-head'.

I understand that extreme blocking causes a nuisance from vampiric weapons because you're losing more than your gaining. I made the comment about Disease as an addition to the anti-vamp arguement because it was clear what Avarre said and it didn't need justification from me.

-1 regeneration is nothing on its own but 4 physicals with vampiric weapons are adding to their own team's pressure especially when there's tonnes of blocking going on too.

In the above situation, with all sorts of degen, I would find it slighltly relieving to switch off the vamp if I was not reaping the benefit of the life-steal. That's all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scourge`

You can combat the degen from a vamp weapon with mending, that coupled with healing hands = instawin.

Issue solved.

Scourge` · Oct 10, 2007, 12:58 PM // 12:58

You can combat the degen from a vamp weapon with mending, that coupled with healing hands = instawin.

SotiCoto · Oct 10, 2007, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Wrong. Everyone seems to be wrong about Sundering. Sundering is good because when it hits, it adds ~25-30 damage extra. BUT, when it hits with a Critical hit, the two add ~50-60 damage on top of your regular hit. That paired with the attack skill damage, can add up to be huge. This means that on a weapon with a high Critical hit (Axe [6-28], Hammer [19-35], Scythe [9-41]), you will be hitting a target for up to 100, and in some cases well OVER 100. THAT is what kills someone. Not an additional 3 or 5 from Vampiric.

You're not even disagreeing with me... so why call me wrong unless you yourself are just trying to aggravate me?
It is always worth remembering though: Sundering doesn't add any extra damage like Vampiric does... but rather bypasses part of the mitigation involved. Characters with more armour effectively have more to lose against Sundering effects (though for the sake of what remains they still take less damage overall).
And I still would like to note that Sundering Dagger Tangs are effectively worthless, not only because standard dagger attacks are so weak anyway... but because Assassin Skill Damage is armour-ignoring anyway. The same goes for other armour-ignoring damage: Sundering shouldn't do anything to it whatsoever.... whereas Vampiric will still add to that.
I will however concede that Sundering is far more effective on a weapon with a very high base damage.

Now.... may we stop arguing PLEASE?

fenix · Oct 10, 2007, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

I play all classes.

I understand that extreme blocking causes a nuisance from vampiric weapons because you're losing more than your gaining. I made the comment about Disease as an addition to the anti-vamp arguement because it was clear what Avarre said and it didn't need justification from me.

-1 regeneration is nothing on its own but 4 physicals with vampiric weapons are adding to their own team's pressure especially when there's tonnes of blocking going on too.

In the above situation, with all sorts of degen, I would find it slighltly relieving to switch off the vamp if I was not reaping the benefit of the life-steal. That's all.

As for the blocking, I tend to swap to Vamp, as the Life Steal goes through it, so when beating on a target, it can add up over time, which will make a Monk waste energy when I simply need to hit Space. So in that case, the Vamp is good to have as it'll go through the block, and then when the block ends, you can swap to Sundering for a spike.

I understand what you mean by the extra 1 degen, but tbh most in degen teams (or even a Burning Arrow spreading burn/poison), the extra 1 won't make a difference. It's going to be on everyone anyway, so the extra 1 shouldn't matter too much in the long run. By itself, the 1 degen is covered by a Divine Favor heal every 15 seconds or so, which isn't difficult for a monk to do (even easier, an LoD every 45ish seconds would cover it).

If you have several physical damage classes, it's better to have them set up spikes with Sundering, as if they all sundercrit at once, the target is going to explode. Whereas with vampiric, the extra 3-5 will not kill someone, which I've said before.

I spose take a Dervish out to the Dummies, and bash them with JUST a Sundering Scythe. You'll notice that every now and then, your damage will jump up to a MUCH larger one. Pair that with an attack skill like Wearying Strike (30 damage + deep wound), you'll hit the target for a VERY large number (I've done over 120 at certain points, not counting Deep Wound).

makosi · Oct 10, 2007, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

As for the blocking, I tend to swap to Vamp, as the Life Steal goes through it, so when beating on a target, it can add up over time, which will make a Monk waste energy when I simply need to hit Space. So in that case, the Vamp is good to have as it'll go through the block, and then when the block ends, you can swap to Sundering for a spike.

I just tried a vampiric hammer against the Master of Enchantments who uses guardian. When my attacks were blocked, the target didn't lose 5 health nor did I gain 5 health.

fenix · Oct 10, 2007, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

I just tried a vampiric hammer against the Master of Enchantments who uses guardian. When my attacks were blocked, the target didn't lose 5 health nor did I gain 5 health.

Hmm...I was sure the Vampiric went through block...

Well, it goes through Mist Form, so maybe that's what mixed me up.

Usually I use vampiric when the target is protted anyway, so when my extra damage isn't going to matter. Although, this only applies to Axe/Hammer, with Sword you're better off using Furious to hit things, or Zealous, as it means you can spam the sword skills more.

SotiCoto · Oct 10, 2007, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Usually I use vampiric when the target is protted anyway, so when my extra damage isn't going to matter. Although, this only applies to Axe/Hammer, with Sword you're better off using Furious to hit things, or Zealous, as it means you can spam the sword skills more.

There we go then! ^_^

Zealous for Daggers
Furious or Zealous for Swords
Anything goes for Axes (I like Zealous, personally)
Sundering for Hammers
Sundering for Scythes

... Zealous for Hornbows... on W/Rs .... Snehehe!

Cebe · Oct 10, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

So I tried working out the math, apologies if this turns out to be a complete fail-fest!

Let's assume a Scythe, with a +15% damage mod, and +20% customised damage.

Let's also assume a 100% critical rate. If I'm correct, this would be:

(41 × 35%) × 1.41 = 78.04

Sundering:
Sundering has a 1 in 5 chance to do an extra 20% damage. So, for every 5 attacks, 4 will do 78.04 damage, while a fifth should do (78.04 × 25%) = 93.65 damage.

(4 × 78.04) + 93.65 = 405.81 = 81.16 damage per hit on average.

Vampiric:
Vampiric does an unconditional 5 lifesteal every hit:

(5 × 78.04) + (5 × 5) = 415.20 = 83.04 per hit on average.

People have been arguing that Sundering works better on skills. So I decided to take a theoretical look at that as well. Let's think about a Dragon Slash warrior using "For Great Justice!", again, getting a 100% critical hit rate, with 15 attribute points in Swordsmanship, and ignoring the strength attribute.

Sword damage on critical (assume +15% and +20% damage again):
(22 × 35%) × 1.41 = 41.88 damage
Add on additional damage from Dragon Slash:
41.88 + 40 = 81.88

Sundering:
Again, chance of getting +20% AP is one in every 5 hits:
(81.88 × 4) + (81.88 × 20%) = 425.78 = 85.16 damage per hit on average

Vampiric:
(81.88 × 5) + (3 × 5) = 424.4 = 84.88 damage per hit on average

So, on skill use, Sundering wins out, but only just, and if you're using a multitude of skills and you only have a 20% chance for Sundering to come into effect, what's to say it will never activate on Dragon Slash, or Radiant Scythe, or Mighty Throw, and always activate on Sever Artery, or Barbed Spear? I still think that overall Vampiric will win out, since Sundering has a small chance to actually deal that great spike of damage on a high-damage skill.

Sorry if I got any of that wrong btw, if my working out needs correcting, let me know!

At the end of the day, Vampiric is always there, Sundering is based on chance. How lucky are you feeling?

fenix · Oct 10, 2007, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

So I tried working out the math, apologies if this turns out to be a complete fail-fest!

Let's assume a Scythe, with a +15% damage mod, and +20% customised damage.

Let's also assume a 100% critical rate. If I'm correct, this would be:

(41 × 35%) × 1.41 = 78.04

Sundering:
Sundering has a 1 in 5 chance to do an extra 20% damage. So, for every 5 attacks, 4 will do 78.04 damage, while a fifth should do (78.04 × 25%) = 93.65 damage.

(4 × 78.04) + 93.65 = 405.81 = 81.16 damage per hit on average.

Vampiric:
Vampiric does an unconditional 5 lifesteal every hit:

(5 × 78.04) + (5 × 5) = 415.20 = 83.04 per hit on average.

People have been arguing that Sundering works better on skills. So I decided to take a theoretical look at that as well. Let's think about a Dragon Slash warrior using "For Great Justice!", again, getting a 100% critical hit rate, with 15 attribute points in Swordsmanship, and ignoring the strength attribute.

Sword damage on critical (assume +15% and +20% damage again):
(22 × 35%) × 1.41 = 41.88 damage
Add on additional damage from Dragon Slash:
41.88 + 40 = 81.88

Sundering:
Again, chance of getting +20% AP is one in every 5 hits:
(81.88 × 4) + (81.88 × 20%) = 425.78 = 85.16 damage per hit

Vampiric:
(81.88 × 5) + (3 × 5) = 424.4 = 84.88 damage per hit

So, on skill use, Sundering wins out, but only just, and if you're using a multitude of skills and you only have a 20% chance for Sundering to come into effect, what's to say it will never activate on Dragon Slash, or Radiant Scythe, or Mighty Throw, and always activate on Sever Artery, or Barbed Spear? I still think that overall Vampiric will win out, since Sundering has a small chance to actually deal that great spike of damage on a high-damage skill.

Sorry if I got any of that wrong btw, if my working out needs correcting, let me know!

At the end of the day, Vampiric is always there, Sundering is based on chance. How lucky are you feeling?

That's what I was gonna show, but didn't have the time. The main point from that, is yes the DPS is almost the same, BUT, when you hit sundering, the hit is a lot higher, which is better for killing someone, whereas Vampiric will not be a difference.

The sundercrit with a Scythe (93.65) is sexy when you add on a 30 from Wearying, and a deep wound. Take a target down a whole 250 health with 1 skill.

Savio · Oct 10, 2007, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

So I tried working out the math, apologies if this turns out to be a complete fail-fest!

1. Armor penetration doesn't apply to +damage, you add +damage in after factoring AP. Sundering with attack skills just means you get gobs of damage in one hit.
2. You get +38% damage from 15% and customization. The damage mods multiply.
3. You neglected the weapon mastery factor, which should make the numbers a bit higher. At 14 Scythe Mastery, the crit is 86 and the sundercrit is 106.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Sundering is good because when it hits, it adds ~25-30 damage extra. BUT, when it hits with a Critical hit, the two add ~50-60 damage on top of your regular hit.

It's closer to 10-20 on a sundercrit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

As for the Sundering debate, everyone is throwing opinions around, but noone is providing any numbers.

The only thing numbers prove is that Vampiric gives a bit more DPS than Sundering. However, does that extra DPS really matter? Is your goal to get the highest DPS or to kill stuff?

Government Flu · Oct 10, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

My opinion is this:

There are three categories mods will fit into. Number one are perfect mods. Whether it's the famous 15^50% or a 15% while hexed, those mods are considered perfect because they don't go any higher. Number two are imperfect mods. Obvious examples include +29HP staff wrappings, 20/18 sundering, and so forth. Then there are the most sought after mods.

These most likely became the most sought after because many green weapons carried them, and so the definition of a perfect weapon became: Gold color, same req. as a green weapon, rare skin, and same stats as green weapons, be it zealous with 15^50 or sundering with +30HP.

If you're serious about a particular character, you'll have all kinds of weapons to use in many different situations. Take my warrior for example, my primary character. I've branched her out into not only high class PvE but also competitive PvP and she has multiple builds and many weapons to choose from.

While a furious axe may do in one situation, if I already have a skill that builds up more adrenaline to begin with, I may go for sundering or an elemental mod because that'll give me a better edge.

Cebe · Oct 10, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

1. Armor penetration doesn't apply to +damage, you add +damage in after factoring AP. Sundering with attack skills just means you get gobs of damage in one hit.
2. You get +38% damage from 15% and customization. The damage mods multiply.
3. You neglected the weapon mastery factor, which should make the numbers a bit higher. At 14 Scythe Mastery, the crit is 86 and the sundercrit is 106.

1. So you're saying Base damage + 38%, +20% (sundering) THEN + skill damage?
2. >.< I knew that really

3. This still leaves vampiric on top though? Just...the gap closes a bit.